Atheist elders to a pre-theist child
I’m in somewhat of a bind and not nearly as much as some atheist parents I know.
I’m in the position of being a role model, and elder to a fourteen year old who identifies as a Christian. An atheist role model at that.
No bind you say, and normally I’d agree with you. By the way, I don’t label the kid a “Christian child” because frankly, while he’s read The Bible extensively, he simply doesn’t understand what he’s got himself into. His Church on the other hand have branded him with their supposedly indelible mark. He’s been baptised.
Both of his parents are atheists. One has read, and has enjoyed the work of Richard Dawkins long before said kid came into the world. The other, the father, just never believed in God, but has to some extent been happy to give a mild level of deference Church organisations that have a social presence (The Scouts and so on.) While he may not believe that the foibles of these organisations (the defective, homophobic values of The Scouts for example) are alright, their other good deeds apparently make it all alright.
Said kid had his first exposure to organised Christendom through The Scouts, which is ironic because he has a lesbian auntie whom he still loves.
The Christian arguments that he invokes when anyone is curious, or when he is asked to justify and assertion start with identity; “I am a Christian, therefore…” It’s stage three of Kohlberg’s moral development, in caricature.
He’s largely naive to the mythos somewhat like JCE’s kiddlings.
He identifies as a tolerant Christian, and states that he doesn’t hate gays, just that Christians shouldn’t be gay (as if gay Christians have a choice). He knows that creationists are lunatic liars and frauds.
When I ask him of the nature of his theology, he doesn’t understand, doesn’t know what I mean and it’s more than just the definition of the word. He tells me that his church is a modern one. He tells me that his church helps young people who are on drugs.
I ask him questions to determine if they use qualified professionals to give this help like the mainstream churches often do, or if it’s a dangerous Mercy Ministries type arrangement. He can’t answer me. He doesn’t know. They’ve told him that they help and that’s good enough for him. He’s a bright kid, but sadly not when it comes to people. In the past, he’s been convinced by others, and even by himself that he has to submit himself to his peers when not at all for his own good, and not at all just.
He’s an easy victim for a predatory proselyte.
I ask him what denomination of Christianity his church belongs to. He doesn’t know.
I ask him if his Pastor is a creationist. At least he knows about creationism. He can’t answer me though. He doesn’t know if his Pastor is a creationist.
I ask his father what denomination the church belongs to and what their theology is. He doesn’t know. He tells me that when they are behind closed doors, they put their hands up to feel the light or something, but that when they are dealing with the outside world they seem nice. They seem nice so that makes it okay.
Are they dominionist? Are they dispensationalist? Are they theologically liberal? To what extent do they use literary analysis when engaging in their bible study? At any rate, they believe in a hell and they believe that I, along with the kid’s parents, are going there forever. Where’s Spong when you need him?
Clearly the kid was baptised as a very un-informed Christian. Such is the hazard of branding kids Christian, Muslim or what-not. But it would have been the same if they baptised the father!
The father told me that at his baptism, his son was the most eloquent, articulate and confident when they all gave their personal testimonies. And some of the others were adults! Yet he understands so little of what he’s getting himself into and he’s prone to being manipulated. Just how un-informed were the others!
Clearly his church don’t have a problem with baptising those un-informed about their decision. Clearly they are eager to brand people into the in-group.
I’m not ultimately responsible for the kid. But I can’t sit back and watch him think uncritically about what he’s getting himself into. He’s got a vulnerable mind and a developing mind and allowing any suppression of the development of his critical faculties is nothing short of child neglect.
So I ask him the occasional, pertinent critical question and on rare occasions he can deal with them. Perhaps not arriving at a conclusion, but at least being generally curious.
The Euthyphro dilemma, the problem of hell and so on. He hasn’t directly predicated his arguments on God’s existence, or rather he hasn’t based the authority of scripture on divine mandate, but we are getting to that point.
And I’m told by some to go easy on him. To not upset the apple cart. They reckon that I’m just stirring the kid up, no matter if I point them to the philosphical origins of the criticism!
Problems like the Euthyphro dilemma are important parts of the history of philosophy and indeed theology. Theist or atheist, to not expose him to and encourage this kind of critical thinking is to neglect him. And the only people telling me to go easy so far are atheists!
Atheists giving special deference to theism, so much so that they recoil at anything that could possibly offend the church, even if in actual fact it doesn’t! Uncle Tom atheists and not exactly exemplars of reason; more than a couple of Christian theologians have raised and discussed the problems I’ve put (mildly) to the kid!
I’ll tell you were I stand though. As far as I’m concerned, even if the kid isn’t under my care, I won’t hold back with the prompts to think. All authority stems from responsibility and hence any parental (or other) wishes to tolerate neglect, carry no authority.
I’ll critique and prompt critique as I see fit. I hope it catches on.
~ Bruce











Bruce,
I am an atheist and I have a 16 y/o stepson that is identifying himself as a strong Christian. He developed these views from his grandmother. His mother, my wife, is not religious but didn’t much care if he learned his mother’s religion. She now knows that was an error. He knocked me on my ass when he said to me a few months ago , “Science is just brainwashing people. All it does is try to bring down God!” Since then I have been walking a fine line of getting him to think on his own without him thinking that I’m influencing him. I have not tried so much to challenge his beliefs but I have challenged him again and again to critically think. When he makes a claim, I make him back it up. I don’t let him off easy. So far it has been working. He’s gone from, “I know evolution isn’t real because I didn’t come from a monkey” to, “well maybe God put evolution into motion. ”
I would say you’re on the right track and you sound like an excellent role model.
1. Get him to assent to the proposition that the central mystery of the Christian faith is the redemption offered by the crucifixion, then try this.
2. Expose him to the semi-heritical works of some highly respected church fathers (Origen, the anti-trinitarian and before-the-fact anti-Nicene being the best example), then ask why such views are wrong.
3. Another theologian, Peter Abelard, has many useful works, particularly Sic et Non which (along with other awkward questions) was the real reason (his “resolutions” of contradictions may have been somewhat weak intentionally) he was castrated – Heloise was merely the pretext.
4. See if he can put forward an argument why other monotheistic denominations and religions are invalid. (Why are Zoroastrianism, Judaism, Islam, and Mormonism WRONG)
5. In general, most Christians have no idea of what doctrine they actually adhere to. Making them think theologically (rather than merely using a-theological arguments) is less confronting, yet, because they HAVE to let their defences down, it is more likely to lead to an awakening.
Dave’s #1 above is just pop-theology, and I certainly don’t see the point it makes is of any relevance. #2, #3 & 4 do have a point, but are also theological.
I doubt the theological approach, as opposed to a rational one, is the way to go*; however, since I’m not in the business of deconverting, I cannot argue with #5 except from personal opinion.
* Mainly because they all presume the existence of a god.
I advocate a subtle challenging approach so that he may come to his own conclusions. You wouldn’t want him to jump the fence just in deference to your uber coolness. It may take longer, but I think it will work better.
SCAtheist,
I wish you luck in your tribulations!
Dave and John,
I think that critical, theological problems have their place – the theologically inclined can’t easily ignore them if they are proposed by someone they can trust, and the solutions, precisely because they propose a numinous, are largely unsatisfactory (naturally suggesting one look outside the God-presupposing box).
This only works of course if one is dealing with someone who is honestly inquisitive.
Sean,
Uber cool? First time anyone’s called me that!